More basic questions if anyone has the time.

[dr_pluto]

Alright, for sound on my super 8 project, can I just record the sound on a regular audio tape recorder (with a mic attached)that you can find at Walmart for 20 bucks? Just digitize that sound to my computer and dub it over the film.

I have an unused, but low-end ,Bell and Howell. That is, no light meter and no change of fps. So I guess it's 18 fps.

What I'm wondering, is if this is even possible.

[Cranium]

Possible, and done all the time.
Just make sure to use a slate.

[calgodot]

If you are at all concerned about picture and sound synchronization, then you will have a lot of work ahead of you. Unless you have some way to sync the picture with the sound.

You'll find a lot of ways to do sync sound electronically. Most of them work, all of them are troublesome, and some are costly. None are fool-proof or fault-resistant enough to justify the cost and labor, IMHO. (A popular one here, the Film Group modification, can cause you to "waste" about 10-30 seconds per take! After 3 takes, you've used anywhere from 30 seconds to half your roll waiting for sound to sync!)

From your post I'll wager you don't want to spend more than that $20, and can hardly afford to waste film. So I'll propose something that many seem to have forgotten: filmmakers used sync sound for many years without benefit of pulse generators or variable speed motors in cameras and/or recorders. Fellini, for example, shot 8 1/2 with no simultaneous sound recording at all - he looped the dialogue later with actors in studio. (I've been around one film done this way: It is a lot of work. I do not recommend it.)

That's the really hard way to do it. The easiest way is to buy a slate, a.k.a. clapboard. Those diagonal lines that match up on the clapping device are the visual sync signal. The clapping sound is the audio sync signal.

Once your film and audio are digitized and transferred to your computer, view the audio as a waveform in your editing program. Match the audio cue (the clap) with the visual cue (the diagonals meeting) - expand the timeline view to frame-by-frame so you can line them up exactly. Premiere and FCP will allow you to lock the audio track to the video track anywhere in the timeline. It takes some practice, but once you've done it a few times it begins to become second nature.

Depending on your recording device, you may have to adjust for drift during long takes. (If you have long takes, and you're using a $20 battery operated Walmart tape recorder, then you will likely have considerable drift.) This is where the audio begins to slip out of sync with the video due to variations in the motors of camera and audio recorder. This amounts to about a 1% difference every minute or so. (Sorry to be vague, but the drift differes from device to device). But if you're shooting 24fps Super 8, then you won't have many long takes anyway. Drift will be negligible, if noticeable at all.

If you're not worried about sync, then just shoot the picture and add the sound willy-nilly. That's the super easy way to do sound with Super 8!

[MovieStuff]

Record on what ever you want. Just have your talent clap their hands as soon as the camera starts and as soon as they finish the scene. Line up the first clap on the timeline and then stretch or shrink the sound slightly until the end clap lines up. Everything in between will line up fine. Wastes no film. Requires no modifications. Cheap and easy and lots of people do it this way all the time successfully.

Roger

[dr_pluto]

I have to admit that getting involved in film instead of video is somewhat intimidating at first, so I appreciate you guys breaking it down for me.

Actually what calgodot said got me to thinking. I could just do the sound on site after each scene. If for some reason it doesn't match up, I could have the actor (mostly me anyway) say it on tape again, but this time with the video playing (after I've transferred it).

So now I've got a borrowed tripod, a super 8 camera that was given to me, I'm doing sound on a cheap tape recorder from Walmart, a boom mic a friend stole from a radio station before they shut down, my own band to do the music, and "borrowed" video software.

That's what I call Sanford and Son filmmaking.

[Cranium]

But why not just record the sound during shooting? At least you know that it matched at one time!

[dr_pluto]

I've ran my camera and it seems loud. I think if I record the sound at the same time I do filming my mic will pick it up, although I haven't tested it.

[JIM DUNN]

CALGODOT???...Would you mind elaborating on this?

"None are fool-proof or fault-resistant enough to justify the cost and labor, IMHO. (A popular one here, the Film Group modification, can cause you to "waste" about 10-30 seconds per take! After 3 takes, you've used anywhere from 30 seconds to half your roll waiting for sound to sync!"

I've considered getting the Film Group fix on my camera, and am interested to know what about their modification would cause me to waste 10-30 seconds per take.

Thanks

[calgodot]

Regarding the Film Group modification, I want to preface what I say by making it clear - if you want crystal sync and your camera isn't already equipped, then this is the place to go. They do quality work, and the system works as well as any other double-system sync sound for Super 8.

That said, doing sync sound with this system requires that you roll camera, then roll sound, then wait for a signal that synchronization between sound and camera has been attained. In the best circumstances, there is a 2-3 second delay between camera rolling and sound rolling. Waiting for the sync adds another 3-5 seconds. An increased delay between camera roll and sound roll seems to increase the length of waiting for sync (though this is from memory - I have not tested this scientifically).

Even the best circumstances seem to require several seconds of time in which film is simply rolling. And there were times during one shoot where the delay between sound rolling and sync was ten and fifteen seconds. I don't have to tell anyone here that when you're shooting S8, the pressure is on: you've got 2.5 minutes on that roll. Roll-out is coming faster that you think.

My comments about the Film Group mod stem mostly from the desire to save money. It is an expensive modification ($400/500 is a lot of film) and IMHO not worth the $ unless you plan to shoot a *lot* of dialogue. That said, there is no other way to get a Canon 1014XLS to run at 24/25fps, so if you've got the money then the mod is a good deal.

[blackangus1]

Rolling film before rolling sound -- are you referring to some sort of system where the camera and the tape recorder are cabled together? There may be some issues of synchronizing between devices such as that, but if you're using crystal there's no reason to wait for the recorders to synchronize between themselves.

I haven't had an S8 camera sync'd by them, but I used to have a Beaulieu R16 that was crystal-sync'd by The Film Group. There was a small delay while the control box brought the motor into sync speed, probably 3-5 seconds. In practice that really wouldn't be a problem, because you normally roll audio before rolling camera, and the few seconds it takes for the camera to come up to speed don't have to be wasted because they can be pointed at the slate right before the clap. So there may be a little tiny bit of waste but it shouldn't be significant.

With all that said, I don't think I would bother with the modification. Considering that for the $550 it costs to get the modification, you could probably buy a CP16/A... or if you really must have crystal sync on S8, you could sell your existing camera and take that money plus the $550 you would have given to the Film Group and probably come really close to affording a crystal-sync Beaulieu 6008PRO...